[quote=eehjhay]Finally someone standout. I didn't really spoken out my views regarding this topic. So you guys might want to read my response. [b]And here he comes again to debate again...hold on to your seats everybody [/b] @topic: abortion [spoiler][quote=bhebhiej]I have to say that I support a woman's right to have an abortion. It's her choice. It should not be the government's decision[/quote] I agree on this. [b]Woman's rights.[/b] Remember that dude. I will use this first comment of yours against your own view later on. [quote=bhebhiej]Is a fetus a person?[/quote] Actually yes. From the moment the fetus start to fertilize, a life has been created inside of a woman's body. If you'd think that they don't have lives, and influence other people from this thought, then people will just consider abortion is the "cool" thing to do. Prostitution and rape incident will vastly increase its rate. [b]--Yes, actually, you're correct about that. I guess what I was aiming at more, though, is just that even at that stage, the fetus has not even developed a brain yet. So that fetus doesn't "know" anything that's going on yet. I can't say that I agree that abortion would ever be view as the "cool" thing to do. And I don't think this part of the issue would greatly affect the frequency of prostitution or rape occences.[/b] [quote=bhebhiej]And actually, if you were partly referring to the United States...our current President is actually a Republican, a conservative, and he is against abortion but he cannot just say "okay, abortion is going to be illegal now and that's the law". He has to have a majority support of the Congress, then take the matter to the Supreme Court[/quote] I would like to emphasize the word "IF" from this point. Nobody is referring US regarding this topic. [b]--That's why I said "if"...I wasn't sure what "that country" meant.[/b] [quote=bhebhiej]As for our President having a heart?...I don't know...but for the majority of the American people...yes, we do have a heart.[/quote] I remember the word "IF" from the previous point of yours. No need to claim her comment towards your President, your government, nor even your country. You might as well check other countries about how they deal with abortion. Maybe that's why she made her comment that way. [b]--Exactly...again, why I used the "if"...And I didn't take it offensively, just since I'm from one of "those countries" I put that in there, and honestly...I don't really like my country anyway, at least not the leadership.[/b] [quote=bhebhiej]Everybody disagrees with it? I disagree lol...."the right of the child"...I ask again, is a fetus a child?[/quote] How can you even think of this? This is common sense. So abortion is needed immediately since the fetus or the baby will not speak or complain? --Mostly, I was aiming at the comment that "everybody disagrees with abortion"...not everybody does. [quote=bhebhiej]And glad you raised the question of "saving the life of the woman, and especially "if the child would be born with a congenital disorder". Yes, good thinking. What's worse, allowing the future child to grow up possibly confined to a bed or wheelchair, or disfigured and deformed, never being able to experience the joys of life...OR...saving that future child of having to go through a life of physical and likely emotional/mental pain?[/quote] You also have to consider the woman's decision about this. If the child will grow with various pains, then it won't be as hard as it could be. Why? It is because, might be, the mother of the child chose her baby to live. The mother will do anything that she can do, to take care of the child, protect her child, and give as much love as anyone "deserve" to have those attention and affections. [b]--Yes, exactly my point...A woman's right to decide for or against abortion...I'm not saying that if it is pre-determined that the baby will be born with disorders that is "HAS" to be aborted. I'm saying that if the mother knows the situation and she decides that either she cannot care for the disabled child or that she does not want the disabled child to suffer...then she should have the right to choose abortion.[/b] Eventually when the child grow, he/she will be very much grateful to her mother who decided him/her to live more and have that experience to live. As the slogan says, "mother knows best." [b]--But sometimes, no matter how much a disabled child is loved and cared for...he/she still has to go through much physical and/or emotional pain. Does anyone ever ask the child if he/she enjoys his/her life? Yes, there are cases where a severely disabled child does enjoy his/her life, but more often than not, a lot of these children as miserable.[/b] [quote=bhebhiej]As for the issue of a child born of rape...I read an article once that gave statistics (from scientific tests/studies) about the likelyhood of a child born of rape to grow up with mental, emotional, and psychological disorders, sometimes very severe cases (I've been searching the net trying to find this article but have been unsuccessful to this point). I don't remember the exact statistics but I think I remember it saying that children born of rape at 3 times more likely to be emotionally and psychologically disturbed as an adult, leading to possible acts of crime (including rape itself).[/quote] It's not just being raped and abused, also the result of excessive use of contraceptives such as pills that causes people to have some disabilities. I am not that disturbed by the quantity of those disabled people, want to know why? [b]--Yes, I know of these findings as well. However, my point is that a child is much more likely to suffer mental disorders as an adolescent and adult when it was conceived by rape (I am a child born of rape) and I have been "troubled" my whole life, and sometimes I really wish that I, myself, had been aborted. There are many different causes for being born with mental/emotional disorders, but the chances are even greater when the child is born under these circumstances, and if a mother wishes to abort the "seed of a rapist" then she should be allowed to do so, especially if she knows she cannot care for the child properly, or if she is not ready to take on the challenges of motherhood.[/b] Here in Australia, abortion is legal. You can even get a prescription from a doctor to buy some drugs that can help a female to abort her pregnancy. But even if though, I find the number of those disabled people here in Sydney are huge. I am not sad or disappointed. I am even glad and happy whenever they are around near me. I always have a smile whenever I see them smiling and happy. You might think that the reason why they are happy despite from their disabilities is that they had a chance to meet the world and experience how wonderful to live in it together with their love ones. [b]--Yes, and again...some of these children "are" happy. And for the ones who are, I am happy for them, and very glad that they do get to enjoy their lives. But, again, I have to stress that not ALL are happy and enjoy their lives.[/b] [quote=bhebhiej]no contraceptive is 100% effective.[/quote] I will just ask an innocent question but sincere. Is Vasectomy and Ligature is a kind of contraceptive? I guess they are. I am sure that these methods are 100% effective. I would take back my word if ever there is an incident of pregnancy even if they use these kinds of method. [b]--Haha Ok, yes, vascetomy could be considered a form of birth control, but let's be real here. You're what, 18? 19? 20? Are you yourself willing to go get a vasectomy to use as a form of birth control? I hear it's a costly procedure. As far as being 100% effective...I do believe I have heard of a case where a man had a vasectomy and the "tubes untied" and he got a woman pregnant. But, it's probably the closest you can ever get to being 100%[/b] [quote=bhebhiej]but you can't fool me...times are changing there, and abroad lol[/quote] Yes. You are right here. But Philippine's view regarding abortion will not change since Philippines tend to rely on its religion's perspective. The idea of life and love for life are very essential among Christians. [b]--"The Philippines' view regarding abortion will not change...." Should I call you Nostrodamus? How do you know? Yes, I agree that The Philippines relies heavily on religious beliefs and it is extremely unlikely that they will become so liberal....but it's not impossible. How did The Philippines become such a religious based country? The answer...outside influence. It could happen again. You never know.[/b] [quote=bhebhiej]I realize that a chicken and a human are completely different, but at the same time...it's kind of the same? We kill/murder/eat "babies" every day when we crack open that egg shell. But when you crack that egg open do you think of a life form inside of it, or do you think it's something that "could" have been a life form? Or maybe you just "don't" think about it. Most likely, you probably don't even think about it because you do not consider it to be a "life". It's "just" food. So for those of you who are against abortion and believe that a fetus or embryo is a life form...tell me the difference between a human embryo and a chicken embryo, and why one is a life and one is not. I'm not criticizing you or telling you that you're wrong, I'm just curious to know your side.[/quote] They are not the same. Can you eat a human's embryo or fetus? I know you want to have an analogy with the fetus and embryo. It's really inhumane to eat another human or any human body parts unless you want to eat your nails or hair. Some people do. [b]--Can you eat a human's embryo? Technically, yes, you "could" if you had the means to get a hold of some embryo's and you were a sick, sick bastard. I just hope there is nobody who would "want" to. But let's not stray away from my point here. We're not debating canabalism. Why is a human embryo so much different from a human embryo? Because it's "just" a chicken? It's not special? It's no big deal that one of God's creations was kept from living because of us hungry humans? I understand we need food. But do we really need to eat embryo's of any sort? Can't we just wait until after the grow up and "enjoy" some of their life? If an embryo is a life and it's so precious then that philosophy should be used in all aspescts....human, chicken, duck. Just my opinion.[/b] [quote=bhebhiej]What about in the case of a pregnant woman who may likely die during pregnancy due to whatever complications? Pro-Lifers tend to use the phrase "the right of the child". So in this scenario...what happened to the rights of the woman? She got pregnant (whether intentional or accidentally) so now she loses her right to live, no matter what? That sounds almost hypocritical.[/quote] You might also consider the mother's right to love her child. The mother might choose to sacrifice her own life for the sake of her baby. Life is the most precious gift that a mother could give for her child. As you said earlier, women have rights. The final decision relies on the mothers decision. If under sever circumstances that the mother can not decide, her family will decide. If there's no family at present by her side, then that's the time that the hospital will decide their fate. [b]--Yes, I agree. Again, I was not saying that the child "must" be aborted to save the woman, rather, I just meant that it's up to the woman to decide.[/b] [quote=bhebhiej]In the case of a pregnancy due to a rape...is it fair to make that woman carry for 9 months the child of a psychopath? What if she was not ready to have a child? What if the pregnancy itself (not the birth) would cause her to lose her job thus leaving her no way to make money to support her and that child (or maybe she already has a family and is a single mother)?? In this scenario, the woman did not "ask" to be raped, she didn't ask to be pregnant, she did not desire it. "Thinking before she did something" was not an option for her. "Excuse me, Mr. Rapist, will you please pull out before you come or wear a condom so I won't get pregnant?" Not likely, huh?[/quote] Here in Australia, any pregnant woman has the right to have proper support from the government which is sufficient for both of them two. Our government consider the woman's right to decide, and support them in any way they could. [b]--And that is commendable...However the issue still remains...what if she did not want to be a mother, or she was unprepared and did not want to go through a pregnancy? Shouldn't she be allowed to have the option of abortion? (especially in that situation)?[/b] Anyway, if ever the scenario would be like that, who a sane mother would live to think that her child is the reason of her failures? She might say she hate the child, even on her gestures, but eventually deep inside, she will realized the value of her child. [b]--Not every woman is fit to be a mother...and if she is a mother because she was raped, but was not allowed to choose abortion...then to me, that's just wrong. No woman should "have" to mother the child of a rape incedent if she does not want to.[/b] [quote=bhebhiej]Another side to think about when being against abortion is the case of the unwanted and uncared for child. Those children tend to be the ones who grow up with a lot of anger and turn to crime and drugs. Sure, you have the option to give the child up for adoption. But then you take the risk of the child ending up in a orphanage or a group home or in the care of foster parents. And what if the child is adopted, but down the road the adopting parents decide that they cannot handle raising the child and then the child get bounced into another home with another set of parents. Is that good for the child? I can speak from experience to part of this, because I was in foster homes and group homes when I was a young child while my parents battled over who got custody. I can tell you one thing about that experience...it affected me deeply, even today as a man. It was not a pleasant experience. Visit an orphanage or group home sometime and see if it's a place that you think would be an ideal experience for a young child.[/quote] I am sorry about that. But didn't you realized their reason why they let you live? Can't you appreciate their love? It doesn't mean that they are not showy nor affectionate, that they don't love you. There are many reason why you went to that orphanage and also why they let you live. [b]--Well, I can't say that I know for a fact that my father loves me...he walked out of my life when I was 12 years old and I've never seen or heard from him since. My mother? Hell yes, sure she loves me and I know it and I do appreciate it. Yes, there are times when I enjoy life. But if I never had the chance to live...I wouldn't know what I missed. Right? And just to clear things up...I was not placed into a group home out of "love". I was placed into a group home because the court system stuck me there while my parents battled for custody. They could have placed me with another family member, but the judicial/court system decided to stick me in a group home where I was physically and emotionally abused by staff members (because I was a "troubled" child).[/b] [quote=bhebhiej]Also, what if prior to birth it is determined that the child will be born with some sort of illness or disorder or disability or deformation. What if that illness or disability/etc. confines that child to a life of pain and agony, whether mental or physical? "The child's right to live"...So then the child is born into a life of pain and suffering and maybe this child wants to die...but suddenly, because now that he/she has been born, he/she has no more rights until he/she is of a legal age to consent and be considered an adult and able to make decisions on his/her own. So now the child suffers against his/her will.[/quote] It is rare for the parents to leave their disabled/disordered child. In fact, they will even give their great concern and love towards their child. These disabled/disordered people are lucky, we [i]might[/i] get envy them because the love and concern is far more greater than our parents give to us. [b]--I wasn't referring to the parents leaving the child. I was referring to the fact that some diseases and disorders have no cures or treatments that reduce pain and distress., no matter how well loved and cared for the children are. Some disorders cause a lifetime of great pain and agony.[/b][/spoiler] [spoiler][quote=bhebhiej]I would like to know how those of you who are against abortion feel about fertility drugs and invetro fertilization. What rights do all the cryogenically frozen embryos have? If they are destroyed is that the same as abortion? What about the fact that only 20% of ivf attepts actually work out, meaning a baby is born. What about the 80% of spontanious abortions from ivf, meaning the womans body rejects the implanted embryo? How do people who feel abortion is murder feel about the aggressive manipulation of embryos when the overwhelming liklyhood is an end result of destoying that life? Is this as bad as abortion? If not, why?[/quote] This is even more complicated. I am confuse about the difference between an embryo and a fetus. Let's tackle this one later after. [b]--No problem[/b] [quote=bhebhiej]And finally...this is just from my own experiences with pro-lifers...Why does it always seem that those who are against abortion (killing a "human life") support the death penalty (killing a human life)? Doesn't that kind of make "pro-life" an oxymoron? Just something to think about.[/quote] Could you name one country which support these two concepts at the same time? Because "if" you are referring to the Philippines, they do not support abortion but they try to avoid death penalty. How can you compare the two ideas? I mean did the embryo or fetus did something wrong? They did not. So why punish them? [b]--No, no, I was not comparing the two ideas. I just "threw that out there". And no, I was not referring to The Philippines. I was referring to my own country, the good ol' US of A. Abortion is legal in most states because of a Supreme Court Ruling back in 1973 (I think), but there has been a lot of movement in recent years under the leadership of George Bush to overturn the court ruling, therefore making abortion illegal. And most states here offer the death penalty as punishments in convictions (mostly murder convictions). There's lots of demonstrations and rally's by Pro-Lifers to try and support abolishing legal abortion. And we have even had troubles with Pro-Lifers planting bombs at abortion clinics (bombs that killed human lives). Almost every Pro-Life supporter here in the United States is a conservative, a Republican. And Republicans support the death penalty (most of them). So that's why I said "from my own experiences", pro lifers that I have met, most of them are against abortion but support the death penalty.[/b] About the death penalties, I won't support any of the sides of its argument but I guess their reason to support this is that they think that the offenders deserve those. Raping a minor and slaughtering another human life are the two main reasons that I know in order the death penalty be use. Anyway let us not go away from the topic. We can discuss about the death penalties next time.[/spoiler] [spoiler][quote=bhebhiej]Alright, once again, many thanks to any of you who made it all the way through this. Also once again, I know some of my words probably came across as being harsh, but I really don't mean to be harsh. It's just the way I write, I guess. If you could hear my voice, you would be able to hear that I'm sincere, and that I'm not being harsh. Once you all have gotten a chance to know me better, you'll believe and understand it, as well. But if I did manage to offend any of you, please contact me privately and we'll discuss it and resolve the situation like adults. That's all for now. Still need to get caught up on all the posts.[/quote] Actually I am glad that someone standout and good at debates. I can see myself on you. Don't get me wrong. It's just my point of view. Also do not get offended by my comments. [b]--No offense taken, and I enjoyed reading your views[/b][/spoiler] Woah! Finally I finish this post. Hahaha[/quote] [b]Also...[/b] [spoiler] I should maybe also point out that when I say that I support a woman's right to an abortion, I mean an abortion in the early stages. I most definitely do not support late-term abortions. In my opinion, if a woman is going to have an abortion, then it needs to be decided within the first couple of months. Any later than that, then I believe it should be taken on a "case to case" basis. Just wanted to clear that up. I'm so worried now.... ....Barely anyone has posted since I made mine. I think I've made enemies here in just 1 full day with Class X. Hope nobody hates me already. Just get to know me, first, before you make any perceptions about me. I may have strong words, but I'm really a nice guy. There's a couple people here in FTalk who know me a little more personally and who would probably agree on that.[/spoiler] [b]@glooo hahaha...ummm...if you had experienced female ejaculation for yourself, or even seen it in a "movie"...you probably wouldn't suggest "secretion" as the word to use...sometimes "ejaculation" is too "small" of a word....sometimes is more like a geyser [/b]

Last edited by bhebhiej (2008-06-26 10:52:42)